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14/01/2010, 9:50 AM Watchdog Joined on 07/11/2008 Posts 95 Letting down our heroes It made me angry this morning when I read in the Journal about the former Spitfire pilot whose family face having to sell his home to pay for his nursing care. The NHS used to totally fund the man's care, but have changed their kind after almost two years - the family will now have to find £700 a week!! It seems almost daily we read of cases of service men and women who are let down by this country. But it's not just service people - we are letting down the people who need our help.    Report

14/01/2010, 1:18 PM Inquiringmind Joined on 11/09/2009 Posts 81 Re: Letting down our heroes How ridiculous of you to expect that we should support people who have gone into battle in a vain effort to protect the way of life in this country! Surely the money is better spent on those disenfranchised itinerants who come to this country and are given free housing and virtually as much money as they wish, never having done anything for this country, or paid a penny into the coffers. At least - that's what appears to happen! Bitter?! Could be.    Report

14/01/2010, 2:13 PM fibresand Joined on 07/05/2009 Posts 73 Re: Letting down our heroes ---------RIGHT THAT'S IT !-----------I have just forwarded both your names to the authorities in Brussels and Karachi , and you can shortly expect to be collected from your homes by some very nice Eastern  European gentlemen, who will transport you to the area - centre for your    " Thought Re-Adjustment"  programme. Don't worry, it won't hurt, and you will emerge with a much clearer understanding of the manifold benefits of  "The New Improved England Project". Like me, you will then be much calmer, you will feel love, and  you will just accept any sh*t that's thrown at you from Whitehall, without complaint. You will also be chemically instilled with a sense of deep shame and inner loathing , if you ever again dare to challenge any  of the new and enlightened policies regarding crime,  immigration,  asylum seeking , or the benefit system. --------Just face it,    YOU and 90% of the population are wrong----------THEY are right !------------get it now ??????? -I look forward to speaking to the NEW you soon --------Salam, ---  David        Report

14/01/2010, 4:59 PM Inquiringmind Joined on 11/09/2009 Posts 81 Re: Letting down our heroes Will I be able to claim any benefits whilst I'm on this all-expenses paid holiday? Sounds like a jolly time out!    Report

15/01/2010, 1:13 PM Inquiringmind Joined on 11/09/2009 Posts 81 Re: Letting down our heroes I see the story has now been picked up by the Daily Express (front page), who are comparing this against the police taking no action whatsoever over a Romanian family who moved out of one squat, straight into another. Not allowed to say anything against our immigration rules, though - the brain-washing is kicking in!!!    Report

18/01/2010, 9:30 AM Watchdog Joined on 07/11/2008 Posts 95 Re: Letting down our heroes It seems the good old Journal has really come up trumps by publicising this man's plight. It has since appeared in most national newspapers as well as Radio Four and Radio Five reporting the case. Let's hope someone sees common sense and pays for the care for people like John Mejor.    Report

19/01/2010, 6:55 PM Ian Woolger Joined on 09/09/2008 Budleigh Salterton Posts 211 Re: Letting down our heroes We have been forgetting our heroes since war started, as this tome from Kipling illustrates, how long will it be before the brave lads sacrificing their lives on the streets of Kabul and in the villages of Afghanistan, become distant memories to our politicians. They are already talking about massive defence cuts, whilst still sending our boys out there. The typical stance of the politician. You only find them in the battlefield behind the lines and looking for a photo opportunity! After the Kipling quote, read the end of a newer version I found, with the same sentiments. Tommy I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer, The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here." The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die, I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I: O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away"; But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play, The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play, O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play. I went into a theatre as sober as could be, They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me; They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls, But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls! For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside"; But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide, The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide, O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide. Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap; An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit. Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll, The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll, O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll. We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too, But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you; An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints, Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints; While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind", But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind, There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind, O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind. You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all: We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational. Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace. For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees! Author Unknown O then we're just like 'eroes from the army's glorious past. Yes, it's "God go with you, Tommy," when the trip might be your last. They pays us skivvy wages, never mind we're sitting ducks, When clerks what's pushing pens at 'ome don't know their flippin' luck. "Ah, yes" sez they "but think of all the travel to be 'ad." Pull the other one. Does Cooks do 'olidays in Baghdad? It's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, know your place," But it's "Tommy, take the front seat," when there's terrorists to chase . An' the town is full of maniacs who'd like you dead toot sweet. Yes, it's "Thank you, Mr Atkins," when they find you in the street. There's s'pposed to be a covenant to treat us fair an' square But I 'ad to buy me army boots, an' me combats is threadbare. An' 'alf the bloody 'elicopters can't get in the air, An' me pistol jammed when snipers fired. That's why I'm laid up 'ere. Yes, it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, "We 'ave to watch the pence"; Bold as brass the P.M. sez, "We spare them no expense. But I'll tell you when they do us proud an' pull out all the stops, It's when Tommy lands at Lyneham in a bloomin' wooden box!. It is criminal to steal a purse, daring to steal a fortune, a mark of greatness to steal a crown. The blame diminishes as the guilt increases    Report

20/01/2010, 9:00 AM fibresand Joined on 07/05/2009 Posts 73 Re: Letting down our heroes Good Morning guys----------------I know exactly where you are all coming from, and I share your admiration , (and sadness and despair ), for our Armed Forces on "the front line" -------------however--- Ever since history was accurately catalogued, the ordinary fighting men and women of any  country and any conflict , were / are  basically used as nothing more than "cannon fodder" to further the egos or ideals of  their so called leaders------it's nothing new. At least in this country, all of those serving today have made a free choice to do so, and therefore must be fully aware of the risks they face.-----think back to the first and second World wars, (and long before),  and the horrors of young people rounded up like cattle and shipped onto German/Japanese machine-gun laced beaches and forests, is a lasting  obscenity.-----then think of the millions of ordinary civilian women and children ( all now forgotten, and largely anonymous ) who have been blown to pieces by high explosive bombing in Britain, Germany, Japan, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc etc Also guys,   hard as it is to do so,  remember that the various men and boys fighting against our own soldiers around the World in our various overseas "activities ", are most often themselves brutally forced to fight, and those who actually do choose to fight , presumably believe that THEY are in the right, and that WE are the invaders/ aggressors. One day, ( a long time hence ), the blockheads that run the UK, and USA, will finally realise that waging conventional warfare in SOMEONE  ELSES  country is not only futile, but quite possibly morally illegal, and simply shows a total lack of guile and intellectual tactics in solving "problem" regimes and perceived threats. I think it's already been accepted by many miltary men, that if just HALF the money used on bullets, shells, and bombs trying to oust the Taliban, had been used on various civil engineering projects and agricultural and political "bribery",   that infact the job would have been effectively done for us by the Afghan population and tribal leaders----------------and I shall NEVER EVER understand how anyone with even a single brain-cell thinks that the best way to stop young extremist British muslim men from travelling to terrorist training camps in Afghanistan, Yemen , etc, and then brazenly returning to these shores ------is to physically bomb the hell out of the camps and the teachers --------surely ,anyone in the street can see a better solution, to what is basically a very SIMPLE  problem to solve.--( Human Rights legislation aside !) I'm afraid that now, and in the recent past, the UK, and USA are surprisingly  NOT seen as" moral saviours" by more than half the World's population,--- they/ we  are indeed actually viewed as the World's financially and politically motivated  aggressors and conquerors-----------oddly enough ,  the millions of  civilian men women and children cruelly caught up in the  "war-zones", actually find it very difficult to believe that countries from thousands of miles away , need to bomb and shell their own  poor towns and villages, and  kill their husbands , sons, and grand-sons  to,---------------and I quote -------------------" make the streets of London safer " I am patriotic to the core,   ------------but  I sorta see their point,    -------don't you ?? In my book, most  wars fought on someone elses soil,    are morally bad,----- and are only the product of  ego/ financially driven National leaders,   who are too pig-headed to explore more intelligent solutions---------the truth is I fear, that these guys ( deep down ) love to  " play at soldiers", and show the World how " tough " they are , whilst wrapping themselves in a cloak of  moral virtue, love and caring ------------------------well, it doesn't fool me , for one bladdy minute ! My message to our leaders would be ---YES, by all means, stand up for your values and the security of your own population, --------but NEVER again resort to the truly ignorant method of throwing brave servicemen and woman , and thousands of tons of munitions at the problem-----------if problems exist on foreign shores, try to deal with them diplomatically, or in the form of  various forms of practical assistance ------------------if problems exist within these shores , for once in your futile, timid ,slippery lives , show the "determination" you openely flaunt  in Iraq, and Afghanistan------ ----and bladdy well sort it out here,  at home----------------NOW ! By gum, that's got me off to a good start for the day !-----------pity I'm more or less talking to myself again!    Report

20/01/2010, 2:44 PM Mike Fairclough Joined on 18/04/2008 Posts 115 Re: Letting down our heroes  I'm afraid that now, and in the recent past, the UK, and USA are surprisingly  NOT seen as" moral saviours" by more than half the World's population,--- they/ we  are indeed actually viewed as the World's financially and politically motivated  aggressors and conquerors-----------oddly enough ,  the millions of  civilian men women and children cruelly caught up in the  "war-zones", actually find it very difficult to believe that countries from thousands of miles away , need to bomb and shell their own  poor towns and villages, and  kill their husbands , sons, and grand-sons  to,---------------and I quote -------------------" make the streets of London safer " .... how recent is the recent past FS ?  sceptical   I am about they way History has been portrayed , invasion and Empire building have been going on for Millennia .... the principal is no different now than it was then, just different players .. moral saviour's ? where do you read this stuff ... ah yes, the Daily Mail  The Sun  .. try the Indie  .. and truly Independent I am patriotic to the core,   ------------but  I sorta see their point,    -------don't you ?? .... There have already been some excellent insights this week into the History of the Navy, and later the influence and opinions of TE Lawrence , both on BBC2, especially about the way the middle east was carved up between the English and French contrary to their empty promises( nothing changes) ... and last night's Ken Loach film set in 1920's Eire about the British treatment of the Irish in THEIR own country? chilling ,true, and an indictment (just one more) of centuries of misrule by the Royals and political greed from all parties in   the name of Great Britain  ... truly shameful! have you by chance been watching them?  ... but if you only ... "sorta " see "their" point, you still have, in my opinion, a long way to go  to enlightenment ...    Report

20/01/2010, 4:41 PM Watchdog Joined on 07/11/2008 Posts 95 Re: Letting down our heroes Phew, what do you have in your porridge in the morning? Seriously, I don't want to get into a debate of what is right and wrong regarding Afghanistan. All I know is that we should look after our servicemen and women when they return. In fact, we should look after everyone. The Spitfire hero's case isn't really about him not being rewarded with free care for his endeavours. It simply highlights a major problem with our country. I would argue that all people - irrespective of being war heroes - should expect good care on the state. What would happen in the case of someone not having a house to sell to pay for their care? God, that makes me angry as I am sure I know what the answer would be - they would get the care. We are penalising people because they own a house - one which they have paid for through hard work, more often than not! I remember my father telling me a story when I was younger. One of his work colleagues would blow all his money by the weekend, leaving nothing for the rest of the week. My father went out once a week, had two beers and came home. When my dad was a pensioner, he was at the local working men's club. His old work colleague was there downing his pints and telling everyone how much he got in state hand-outs. By this time, my dad's pension had been eroded and  there was not much left for "extras" such as a beer at the club. It turned out the guy who had spent his money and not put a penny by for old age was actually now better off than my dad - where's the fairness? Who's the fool? Rant over.    Report

20/01/2010, 5:43 PM fibresand Joined on 07/05/2009 Posts 73 Re: Letting down our heroes Mr Fairclough--------I guess we all see things from different viewpoints, on a variety of issues, and naturally, I respect your right to "have a go", when you have an opposing view to mine, or anyone elses -----------I do think it's important though to openly debate issues, and that's why I deliberately try to get a good old conversation going on this forum. Rest assured, If my views differ from yours in future on a particular subject, I will show you due respect,    and will certainlynever  try to parody your quoted comments. Seriously, why don't YOU think of a  controversial subject that you can start a forum debate about ?-------I haven't been scared to "raise my head above the parapet" for someone to take a pop-shot at, -----------and I'm sure that you are not too. The easy option that we could all take is simply to sit back , wait for people to post, ( if they don't all give up first),    and then sarcastically dissect their opinion.---------maybe I should stop posting altogether,    then I wouldn't have to take any of this sh*t , ------------would I ? Infact, ---------the more I think about it,      I think I'll take a relaxing back seat from now on.---------"thanks " ! All the best to all readers of the forum----David      Report

20/01/2010, 6:49 PM Ian Woolger Joined on 09/09/2008 Budleigh Salterton Posts 211 Re: Letting down our heroes I for one would rather you didn't leave this "dwindling band", your posts are always interesting and amusing, with levity where required. Mike Fairclough, whilst I wont always agree with him, usually has a good repost to any comments made and is, as all of us fully entitled to his view. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, I write to stimulate discussion. Whether right or wrong, it is the fact that we all talk about "Stuff" that perhaps gets others listening. Even if they mainly lurk in the shadows. It is sad, that considering the population of the area and the number of people with net access, that we do not get more posters on this site. Over the last six months it has dwindled considerably, which is sad, because we all have varied and sometimes highly opposing views to air, we have been presented with a "free soapbox" by Archant, yet so few of us use it. Hey Ho... As for Afghanistan and Iraq, we should have got involved in neither conflict...That aside, our military are carrying out the orders of a government, which whilst highly flawed, was democratically elected and thus we the voters are responsible for their actions. I will support the military 150% every time, but the government stinks, from its corrupt bottom to the very top. Whatever party replaces Labour will be just as bad, because not one of them has convinced me of their honesty, so the cycle of political life will continue. Wars will be fought, lives will be lost and governments will rise and fall. All we can do is continue to exercise our right to free speech and our right to hold an opinion! Cheers All Ian It is criminal to steal a purse, daring to steal a fortune, a mark of greatness to steal a crown. The blame diminishes as the guilt increases    Report

21/01/2010, 7:24 PM Dougal Joined on 21/01/2010 Posts 2 Re: Letting down our heroes <BLOCKQUOTE><table width="85%"><tr><td class="txt4"><img src="/cs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>fibresand wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4"><P>---------RIGHT THAT'S IT !-----------I have just forwarded both your names to the authorities in Brussels and Karachi , and you can shortly expect to be collected from your homes by some very nice Eastern  European gentlemen, who will transport you to the area - centre for your    " Thought Re-Adjustment"  programme.</P> <P>Don't worry, it won't hurt, and you will emerge with a much clearer understanding of the manifold benefits of  "The New Improved England Project".</P> <P>Like me, you will then be much calmer, you will feel love, and  you will just accept any sh*t that's thrown at you from Whitehall, without complaint.</P> <P>You will also be chemically instilled with a sense of deep shame and inner loathing , if you ever again dare to challenge any  of the new and enlightened policies regarding crime,  immigration,  asylum seeking , or the benefit system.</P> <P>--------Just face it,    YOU and 90% of the population are wrong----------THEY are right !------------get it now ???????</P> <P>-I look forward to speaking to the NEW you soon --------Salam, ---  David</P> <P> </P> <P> </P></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>    Report

21/01/2010, 7:36 PM Dougal Joined on 21/01/2010 Posts 2 Re: Letting down our heroes How right you are but this getting away from the HEROES and in particular this former spitfire pilot. I spent the war as a child nearby to Duxford and know just how much these pilots suffered. They went up every day not knowing if they would come back or if they did what condition they would be in. They risked their lives for this country     Report

23/01/2010, 1:37 PM Irritated Joined on 23/01/2010 Posts 1 Re: Letting down our heroes What about less emtion and more objective views.  There are alternative scenario's for this gentlemans wife.  Moving to a smaller house, Moving to a retirement property or indeed to live with her concerned daughter.  Isn't it just a tad unfair that the NHS/State fund an expensive care home while the family get to keep a property that eventually they will presumably "inherit", don't people work hard to actually provide for their own upkeep !!         Report

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